Wood turtle question...

[K.Price]

Whats the care difference between:

South American Wood Turtles (Rhinoclemmys pulcerrima incisa)

&

Central American Wood Turtles (Rhinoclemmys p ornata)

[Buslady]

Aint sure. Both are highly aquatic(I assume you mean RP Manni, ornate woods like mine), both require humidity, both require varied diet. I'll assume Incisa(i thought those were also CAs) like to dug under as well.

[Bobbie]

I think manni are more aquatic (I read that somewhere- no direct experience) but as R.p. manni vary from quite terrestrial to almost 100% aquatic, that tells you nothing.

[Buslady]

I think manni are more aquatic (I read that somewhere- no direct experience) but as R.p. manni vary from quite terrestrial to almost 100% aquatic, that tells you nothing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah exactly. my two rarely come out of the water!

[jdawson]

Well, I'll try to answer your question...but I'm a little confused about which species you are actually talking about. See, you've got common names mixed with the wrong scientific names...so let me start by straightening that out.

There are seven or eight species of Neo-tropical Wood Turtles. Of these, three species are commonly found in the U. S. pet trade - Rhinoclemmys pulcherrima, R. funerea, and R. punctularia. A fourth, R. areolata is no longer imported, but CB babies are occasionally available.

I'm assuming that by Rhinoclemmys pulcherrima ornata, you're referring to R. p. manni AKA the Ornate Wood Turtle. R. p. manni and R. p. incisa are subspecies of the Central American (or Painted) Wood Turtle. Both subspecies are found in Central America (incisa from southern Mexico to northern Nicaragua and manni from southern Nicaragua & Costa Rica). All manni in the pet trade come from Nicaragua. There are two additional two other subspecies (rogerbarbouri and pulcherrima) both of which are native to Mexico (and not found in the pet trade).

Of the several species of wood turtles in South America, the only one that I've seen referred to as a South American Wood Turtle is Rhinoclemmys punctularia. It is AKA the Spotted-legged Wood Turtle and is native to Columbia, Venezuela, Trinidad, the Guianas, and Brazil. There are three subspecies, which unlike R. pulcherrima are usually not specified in the pet trade.

As for captive husbandry, R. pulcherrima (both subspecies) is the most terrestrial of the three species, while R. funerea is highly aquatic and punctularia just slightly less so. As for a difference between manni and incisa, I haven't really noticed one...there seems to be such a wide range of preferences between different individuals of the same subspecies that it seems hard to say. During the day, one of my female manni probably spends 75% of her time in the water, while the other female and the male are probably more like 50-50. At night, all three tend to retire to the water to sleep.

All three species like warm, moist, humid environments. R. funerea and punctularia are both fond of basking in sun. However, my R. p. manni seem to avoid extremely bright light in favor of more subdued, shady spots. Therefore, rather than a bright basking light (such as a MV bulb), a lower wattage incandescent bulb or ceramic heater combined with a fluorescent light may be more appropriate for pulcherrima.

All three species are omnivorous. However, they seem to prefer plant material (with R. funerea being the most herbivorous). One exception is earthworms, pulcherrima seem to absolutely relish them and the other species enjoy them also. A variety of other live prey and meat is often eaten including waxworms, mealworms, slugs, snails, other insects, and fish. Acceptable plants to offer include romaine lettuce, kale, collard greens, dandelion leaves, and other high Ca greens along with limited amounts of various other vegetables and fruits (tomato, banana, pear, carrot, etc.).

I think that Rhinoclemmys are some of the most interesting species of turtles. R. pulcherrima in particular, they seem to be fairly intelligent, inquisitive, and beautiful (especially manni). As Buslady, Bobbie, and myself (along with many others) can attest, once you get to know them you quickly get hooked. Unfortunately, all adults in the pet trade are WC and only recently have significant numbers of CBB babies appeared. Hopefully, this trend will increase and conservation measures will be enacted to protect those in the wild. If you have any other questions...go ahead and shoot.

Happy Turkey Day,

JeffD

[K.Price]

Ok thanks for the info!

You know any care sheets for the incisa and manni? Also any info on funera?

[Buslady]

Ok thanks for the info!

You know any care sheets for the incisa and manni? Also any info on funera?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have my little bit of care info on my site, it's at Ornate Wood Turtle Care

And Jeff! That was a fantastic bit of information about CA woods!!!

So Jessie's from Nicaragua...I hope Donnie's not WC but he probably is. :-( I hope I can offer babies in the future in hopes to keep some from being taken out of the wild. I would like SEE these guys in the wild in person but I dunno if it's safe to even go to Nicaragua...Costa Rica would be I guess..it's a vacation spot I think

[jdawson]

Here's some stuff from the web...

R. pulcherrima Info & Caresheets

• Central American Wood Turtle Caresheet at Austin's Turtle Page (no author given).
  
• Ornate Wood Turtle Caresheet by Lisa Weiss from the World Chelonian Trust website.
  
• Ornate Wood Turtle Caresheet by Steve Zuppa on the Kentucky Herp Society site.
  
• Painted Wood Turtle Caresheet also by Steve Zuppa (and very similar to the above caresheet) at Terrapene.org.
  
• Already provided in Buslady's post (but worth mentioning again) is the Ornate Wood Turtle Caresheet by Buslady.
  
• Honduran Wood Turtle Caresheet and Ornate Wood Turtle Caresheet at CentralPets.com.
  
• Mexican Wood Turtle Info by Betsy McCormick from the California Turtle & Tortoise Club website (not exactly a caresheet, but more of a narrative of the author's setups & experiences with the species).
  
• Ornate Wood Turtle Info at Empire of the Turtle (again, not a caresheet but does have a bit of husbandry info - and some nice photos).
  
• Tortuga Roja Info (in Spanish) from the Costa Rican Virtual Dry Forest website (info only, not a caresheet - can use Google, AltaVista, or a similar page to translate).
  

R. punctularia Caresheet

• South American Wood Turtle Caresheet at Austin's Turtle Page (no author given).
  

R. funerea Info

• Black Wood Turtle Info by author unknown (called Central American Wood Turtles on the webpage, but shouldn't be confused w/R. pulcherrima. Not a caresheet, just a couple of pics and a little info.)
  
• Black Wood Turtle Info by author unknown (a bit more info - originally from Savage, 2002. The Amphibs. & Reptiles of Costa Rica).
  

...as far as printed material, it is fairly limited. To my knowledge (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), Reptiles magazine has never done an article on them (I'm actually working on something to submit to them). I've been told that there has been some stuff published in several of the European herp magazines (i.e. Reptilia) but I don't have access to any of them. I haven't found any books that devoted only to the care of Rhinoclemmys. There is a tiny bit on R. areolata care and a little data on the other species in the chapter written by Dr. Ewert in Biology of the Reptilia. And Andy Highfield's Practical Encyclopedia of Keeping & Breeding Tortoises & Freshwater Turtles has a short section on Rhinoclemmys. And of course, for more natural history info you can check out Ernst & Barbour's Turtles of the World as well as books on Latin America herps.

Hope this helps,

JeffD

[Buslady]

I wish Reptiles mag would do something.

If you need any good photos for an article I'll gladly send you some. I knw ya got yers but I'd love to see Donnie's mug printed for the world to see! hehe

[prpipes1]

Exactly How close are punctularia and pulcherrima. I know they resemble but is there a possibility of Hybridization?

[Buslady]

Exactly How close are punctularia and pulcherrima. I know they resemble but is there a possibility of Hybridization?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

they're subspecies i believe so they can interbreed.

[prpipes1]

That is where I was confused all of my info says that but nomenclature wise I always see this.

Rhinoclemmys pulcherimma manni and

Rhinoclemmys punctularia

This is not what I would expect as far as subspecies of one or the other. The Latin indicates seperate species. I still think you are correct so the next ? would be. Is there any field records?

[jdawson]

Exactly How close are punctularia and pulcherrima. I know they resemble but is there a possibility of Hybridization?

they're subspecies i believe so they can interbreed.

Nope, they are not subspecies...they are two completely different species. Rhinoclemmys pulcherrima is the Central American (AKA Painted) Wood Turtle. Rhinoclemmys punctularia is the Spotted-legged (AKA South American or Suriname) Wood Turtle. They live in totally different geographic ranges (see my earlier post <{POST_SNAPBACK}>), so the chance of them hybridizing in the wild is zero.

As far as hybrids in captivity, I haven't heard of anyone attempting to get them to breed together. While there are plenty of cases of turtle species in the same genus (or even different genera) successfully mating, I think that pulcherrima and punctularia are divergent enough in lifestyle (pulcherrima is more terrestrial, punctularia more aquatic), genetics (pulcherrima has 52 chromosomes, while punctularia has 56), and reproductive behavior (from what I've read their courtship styles do differ somewhat) that it would be hard to even get them to mate...and (even if mating occurred) fertilization would probably not occur or the resulting offspring wouldn't survive.

Now, the subspecies of the two species can reproduce with each other. So, Rhinoclemmys pulcherrima manni can mate with Rhinoclemmys pulcherrima incisia and successfully produce young. In the wilds of Nicaragua, where the edges of the ranges of two subspecies meet, there are bound to be some intergrades found. In fact, while one of my females is definately a Rhinoclemmys pulcherrima manni, she does show some R. p. incisia traits. And there have been manni x incisia crosses already hatched in captivity (I've seen them advertised on Kingsnake.com and I think that someone on this forum even has some of the hatchlings).

JeffD

[prpipes1]

O.k. So This would explain why my Male R.punctularia spent most of his time this summer on the land instead of in the pond unless it had been dry and hot Which here in the land of the Buckeyes was not too much this Summer if you could call it that. I honestly thought there was something wrong with him over his use of the land and even digging out a little pallet by the waterfall. As far as hybridization I am not really against it and I may even try as I can see where his carapace could use some color other than Black and deep red.

[Buslady]

ahh i love this..im learning everything i want to know about manni! and then some! hehee

helps my obsession!

i caught em in the act last night..i wish she'd lay an egg!

[Guest Placeteño]

Nope, they are not subspecies...they are two completely different species. Rhinoclemmys pulcherrima is the Central American (AKA Painted) Wood Turtle. Rhinoclemmys punctularia is the Spotted-legged (AKA South American or Suriname) Wood Turtle. They live in totally different geographic ranges (see my earlier post <{POST_SNAPBACK}>), so the chance of them hybridizing in the wild is zero.

As far as hybrids in captivity, I haven't heard of anyone attempting to get them to breed together. While there are plenty of cases of turtle species in the same genus (or even different genera) successfully mating, I think that pulcherrima and punctularia are divergent enough in lifestyle (pulcherrima is more terrestrial, punctularia more aquatic), genetics (pulcherrima has 52 chromosomes, while punctularia has 56), and reproductive behavior (from what I've read their courtship styles do differ somewhat) that it would be hard to even get them to mate...and (even if mating occurred) fertilization would probably not occur or the resulting offspring wouldn't survive.

Now, the subspecies of the two species can reproduce with each other. So, Rhinoclemmys pulcherrima manni can mate with Rhinoclemmys pulcherrima incisia and successfully produce young. In the wilds of Nicaragua, where the edges of the ranges of two subspecies meet, there are bound to be some intergrades found. In fact, while one of my females is definately a Rhinoclemmys pulcherrima manni, she does show some R. p. incisia traits. And there have been manni x incisia crosses already hatched in captivity (I've seen them advertised on Kingsnake.com and I think that someone on this forum even has some of the hatchlings).

JeffD

Just to be sure because no one has mentioned it, R. Pulcherima, cannot interbreed with the American Wood Turtle - Clemmys Insculpta. Is this correct?

Luis